Dad Camp: A Novel Take on Fatherhood with Evan S. Porter

In this exciting episode of Girl Dad Nation, host Matthew Krekeler sits down with Evan S. Porter, a talented writer and dedicated dad to two daughters. Evan shares insights into his journey of fatherhood and discusses his recent novel, Dad Camp.

Together, Matthew and Evan explore the themes of the book, the joys and challenges of being a girl dad, and how storytelling shapes our experiences as parents. From humorous anecdotes to heartfelt reflections, this episode dives deep into the power of fatherhood and creative expression.

Episode Highlights:

• Evan’s inspiration behind Dad Camp and the stories that influenced it.
• The joys and challenges of raising daughters.
• How writing and storytelling shape our perspective on parenting.
• Practical advice for dads looking to build stronger connections with their kids.
• The importance of embracing the journey of fatherhood with humor and heart.

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Thanks for listening, and keep embracing the adventure of fatherhood! 🎙️

Girl Dad Nation is made possible by the generous support of our listeners and my wife, Executive Producer of my daughters and this podcast. 

Transcript

**Transcript Auto-Generated**

00:00:00:08 - 00:00:09:19
Evan S. Porter
It's a huge part of being a girl, dad. You know, you can ask some questions. You can learn a little bit, share a little bit of interest. You have to meet in the middle somewhere. Sometimes.

00:00:19:23 - 00:00:43:17
Matthew Krekeler
Welcome to Girl Dad Nation. I'm Matthew and I started this podcast as a dad to daughters, and I absolutely love my daughters. And I love hearing from other dads of daughters just the amazing stories, inspiration and advice. I'm a fairly new dad and my oldest is five, so I love learning from other dads. And today I've got a great guest, Evan S. Porter.

00:00:43:22 - 00:01:06:18
Matthew Krekeler
He is a writer. He has done screenplays, he's written blogs, and most recently he's published a novel called Dad Camp, which I had the pleasure of reading just a couple weeks ago. So I'd love to dive into all of that with him. Talk about, his life as a girl dad, and hopefully it brings you great joy as it did me.

00:01:06:18 - 00:01:10:09
Matthew Krekeler
So, Evan, welcome to the show.

00:01:10:11 - 00:01:15:17
Evan S. Porter
Okay. Thank you. Matthew. So happy to be on with you. I love what you do. So excited to chat.

00:01:15:19 - 00:01:27:07
Matthew Krekeler
Thanks for being here. And you've got two girls. So your oldest is nine. I want to kind of rewind the clock. Tell me about that moment when you first became a dad.

00:01:27:09 - 00:01:55:17
Evan S. Porter
Oh, wow. Well, I feel like there's a couple moments that stand out, right? The first, you know, the positive pregnancy tests, was such a such a fun surprise. And, like, you know, I think it takes a while for the gravity of the of the change your life is about to undertake for that to set in. I remember my wife and I wrote an essay about this at one point, but we were getting ready to do, like, our fantasy football draft, and we, like, picked up a six pack of beer and went back to our apartment.

00:01:55:17 - 00:02:24:10
Evan S. Porter
And she's like, well, let me just take this test real quick. And then, you know, we got the positive test and we were like, okay, that's awesome. But we still got to do the fantasy football draft. It's starting right now. Like, so are I mean, and it was a pretty amazing moment and, you know, the first, you know, in the hospital when my daughter, you know, first came out and came into the world, I it's such a monumental, amazing moment that that's so hard to describe, like just being overcome with that emotion of, wow, this like a new human being in the world.

00:02:24:10 - 00:02:26:12
Evan S. Porter
This is pretty incredible.

00:02:26:14 - 00:02:32:11
Matthew Krekeler
Now, did you know you were having a girl before the delivery, or was it a surprise that at birth.

00:02:32:13 - 00:02:41:12
Evan S. Porter
Yeah, we did, we we found out, the sex since we had, you know, talked about names and, you know, picked out all the girly stuff. And we were we were ready.

00:02:41:14 - 00:03:03:18
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah. We always found out before, but we do know people that try to keep it a surprise. And for us, it just it was one of those things where when we could put a name to our child and then, be calling her that, even if we didn't say the name, to family and friends, but just between us as a couple, it just, it's just it's such a special thing.

00:03:03:18 - 00:03:14:19
Matthew Krekeler
And then when you finally welcome them into the world, it's just like all of those emotions and stuff come, come to light and. Yeah, it's just such an overwhelming experience.

00:03:14:21 - 00:03:28:09
Evan S. Porter
Yeah, I agree, we we had our name picked out, we I don't think we told everybody, but we, we did use it and we would like, talk to, you know, my wife's family and use the name and which feels kind of funny. You know, it feels a little weird, but it does make it a little bit more real.

00:03:28:09 - 00:03:43:09
Evan S. Porter
And, yeah, I my we're planners. My wife especially is a big planner, so I don't know how we could ever not know. And. Yeah. And, try to wing everything, but, you know, people do it and I. It must be an amazing surprise. Must feel really cool that way too.

00:03:43:11 - 00:04:03:09
Matthew Krekeler
And you've got two girls? No sons. Correct. Right. I'm curious if you get the same questions I get, we just had our fourth daughter, and people always ask me like, oh, are you trying for a boy or or are you disappointed that you, don't have a boy? I'm curious if you get the same thing or you're not.

00:04:03:10 - 00:04:21:16
Evan S. Porter
Yeah, I mean, sometimes, and we, you know, my wife and I talk about it like I'd love the opportunity to raise a son and, like, put, put a good man out into the world, you know? Yeah. But I love girls so much. They're they're so much fun. And, No, no, no disappointment. But, you know, that opportunity ever did happen.

00:04:21:16 - 00:04:30:11
Evan S. Porter
That would be really cool. And, but, no, I don't think I would ever, like, have a gender reveal and throw a tantrum if I if it was a blue or something like that.

00:04:30:12 - 00:04:56:01
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah. I get so disheartened by seeing those gender reveals on social media where the father, even sometimes the mother or mother in law or whatever, like just the negative reaction, to it being a girl. And I've never felt that. And even like having four girls, like, each time I just, feel so blessed, to have my girls, but, like, I would welcome a son just as much.

00:04:56:01 - 00:05:11:06
Matthew Krekeler
But I'd still be a girl, dad, and I'd still, like, care about my daughters. And and so people often ask like, well, if you did have a son, well, you got to give up the podcast and all these things. And I'm like, well, no, I still care about my daughters. I still want the best for them. I still want to be involved in their lives.

00:05:11:06 - 00:05:17:01
Matthew Krekeler
Like, yeah. So that was just kind of my experience. But yeah.

00:05:17:03 - 00:05:24:07
Evan S. Porter
It is. I mean, for girls, it's got to be good for the good for the brand. The, you know, you're. Yeah, I got that through and through.

00:05:24:09 - 00:05:52:08
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah, I, I say that it, worked with God's plan, so he, he allowed it to be on brand. But, yeah, your background is in writing. You've done a ton of writing. Yeah. I want to kind of go back, just some of the different things that you've worked on. Part of your resume is, you have a small stretch of time where you were a writer for The Onion, and, I think most of our audience, that's probably heard of The Onion.

00:05:52:10 - 00:06:11:17
Matthew Krekeler
They are the satirical news outlet with crazy, outlandish headlines. Sometimes it seems like those headlines are actually more plausible than not. But, Yeah. Tell me about those kinds of experiences. Maybe start with The Onion and then talk about, some other writing things.

00:06:11:19 - 00:06:32:03
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. I was, so excited to get that that onion job. I was a big onion reader. Like, back in the day. Like, I don't know if they're as popular now as maybe in the heyday, like 10 or 15 years ago, but, yeah, I was I was coming out of college maybe a year or two after college, looking for ways that I could do writing, get paid to do writing.

00:06:32:03 - 00:06:55:17
Evan S. Porter
And obviously, like my my dream was to write the The Onion, but it was it's not a really a straightforward job to get, you know, they don't they don't have they had a careers page, but they're like writing jobs that almost never popped up on there. But, I would check it religiously anyway. And, you know, one day, a day, I was checking the Onion careers page, and they were looking for writers, but not for their, like, print, online work.

00:06:55:17 - 00:07:12:21
Evan S. Porter
But they were launching a television show that was going to be on IFC, like the Independent Film Channel. So they were doing like, we're going to create like a news network. It's going to feel like you're watching like CNN, but it's going to be fake, you know, and your style of jokes. And so they needed writers because they needed a lot of ideas for that.

00:07:12:23 - 00:07:36:01
Evan S. Porter
And so it was really cool. It was like a contract writing job. And I had to submit this packet basically, which it was like I had to send them a bunch of like the headlines that I would the sort of headlines I would come up with his jokes for, for the show. And then they sent me, one headline that I had to write the sketch for, like, actually write out the script for like, how it would play out on the show.

00:07:36:03 - 00:07:52:18
Evan S. Porter
And so that was the packet. And like, I sent that in and, you know, I got selected, which was really cool. So I spent a month just sending them tons and tons of ideas every week, like headlines, pretty much mostly headlines and like one liner jokes that might run along the bottom of the screen and that kind of thing.

00:07:52:20 - 00:08:16:05
Evan S. Porter
And then there would be kind of a narrowing down process or the like, oh, these are the ones that we liked from your from your list. These are what we didn't like. And then, you know, I only did it for a month, but then, you know, eventually the TV show actually came out and, one of my jokes, actually, from my, my packet that I applied with was like the lead off segment of the premiere of the of the show, which was like I was watching.

00:08:16:05 - 00:08:27:05
Evan S. Porter
I had no idea. I was like, yeah, yeah, I was watching it on TV with my family, and I was like, oh my God, I heard this joke. This is so cool, you know? So, definitely that was like a big, big bucket list item right there.

00:08:27:07 - 00:08:32:21
Matthew Krekeler
That's great. And then was that before you became a dad kind of that timeline?

00:08:32:23 - 00:08:43:15
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. That was years before I think I was okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like a year or two out of college. And then, it was a couple years later that I became a dad. So, so pre all my parenting, writing and that kind of stuff.

00:08:43:17 - 00:09:07:20
Matthew Krekeler
Has your perspective changed now? Now being a father and just world view and things, I know, like when I see, like, onion articles that are about parenting specific things, they just hit different. I know that I cry during Super Subaru commercials now, like, when they've got, like, the dad and his daughter. Yeah, for the first time, but,

00:09:07:22 - 00:09:29:08
Evan S. Porter
Yeah, yeah, I'm more I'm more sentimental, too. Like, I've never really been that way. But then suddenly, like, I don't know if it's like being in my mid late 30s or like, it's being a girl dad or what, but definitely I'll get more emotional at movies and, you know, concerts, weirdly, like when everybody's like singing along at a concert, I get really, like, emotional, like, this is so cool, you know, get the sentimental about it.

00:09:29:08 - 00:09:32:21
Evan S. Porter
So, yeah, that's that's new for me. That's new in the past couple years.

00:09:32:23 - 00:09:36:07
Matthew Krekeler
Very cool. Do your girls go to concerts a lot now?

00:09:36:09 - 00:09:55:17
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. Our oldest, our nine year old has been to a few, and she. We were lucky enough to get into the the arrows tour last summer. Yeah. Taylor Swift's that we, heard about a bunch of her friends, and we all went down, and that was pretty incredible, like once in a lifetime sort of experience. And we've taken her to a few other shows to.

00:09:55:19 - 00:09:59:19
Matthew Krekeler
That's epic. Yeah. Did your whole family go to the eras?

00:09:59:21 - 00:10:10:14
Evan S. Porter
We got a babysitter for the little one, and then Ian, my wife and my oldest daughter and a bunch of her friends and our friends. Oh. Went down. We rented, like, a party bus. It was great.

00:10:10:16 - 00:10:12:13
Matthew Krekeler
That sounds awesome, man.

00:10:12:15 - 00:10:21:21
Evan S. Porter
It was epic. It was epic. Yeah. I mean, I think she'll never forget that one, and neither will I. Honestly, it was awesome. Yeah, I love Taylor too, so that's great.

00:10:21:23 - 00:10:44:06
Matthew Krekeler
Now I want to change gears a little bit. Get into your book. Yeah, it was great connecting you with you on social media. And then, getting a copy of your book. I got admit, I really struggle with the physical copies just because life moves so crazy. Yeah. But, I got the audio book, great production quality too, on the audiobook.

00:10:44:12 - 00:11:03:22
Matthew Krekeler
And so podcast audiobooks, that's what I'm doing. Like, when I'm picking up kids from school and going to work. But I just, like, kind of fits in the cracks. But yeah. Loved the book. Yeah. Just wanted to first start with what was the inspiration to write a novel and then even the topic, a dad who takes his daughter.

00:11:03:22 - 00:11:06:17
Matthew Krekeler
I think the age is like 11. Is that correct?

00:11:06:21 - 00:11:08:16
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. She's 11. In the book. Yeah.

00:11:08:18 - 00:11:23:12
Matthew Krekeler
Okay. Yeah. So not quite teenage years, but like growing up fast. And yeah, a moment to bond with his daughter by going to this camp for dads and daughters. What was the inspiration behind that?

00:11:23:14 - 00:11:45:02
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. Well, thank you for, for saying those nice things about the book, I appreciate it. And the audiobook narrator. Yeah. The, the, the voice actor did an amazing job, and he was he knew exactly. You know, he understood the assignment, you know? So just being like, he did a fantastic job. Yeah, I guess I was it was like 2020 or 2021.

00:11:45:03 - 00:12:02:21
Evan S. Porter
And, you know, this was like Covid times, you know, like home a lot with the kids. Our youngest was a baby, like, she had just been born. And, yeah, it was like just kind of, itching for, like, a creative project. Wanted to get back into writing, have been doing, like, blogging and that kind of thing.

00:12:02:21 - 00:12:21:16
Evan S. Porter
But it wasn't scratching like the creative writing itch that I wanted. And I had experience writing some screenplays, but I always felt like, yeah, if a screenplay doesn't become a movie, then it's not really anything, right? So I was like, I had this idea to write a novel that at the end it would at least be a finished product that I could try to do something with.

00:12:21:16 - 00:12:40:19
Evan S. Porter
And if not, I'd just be proud that I finished something. And, so and I kind of was like, cooped up in the house with the kids a lot, you know, during those times in the lockdown and everything. And, well, it didn't really give me a lot of free time as, like, a lot of parents. No, you're like, just parenting 24, seven around the clock.

00:12:40:21 - 00:12:58:13
Evan S. Porter
You know, in those days, it did give me a lot of the, like, emotional inspiration for the book of just being like, kind of really being down and feeling like I have all this time with my kids right now, but I'm not, like, enjoying it. I'm feeling stressed out. I'm feeling anxious and stressed about, you know, the world.

00:12:58:13 - 00:13:20:20
Evan S. Porter
And just like being cooped up and wishing I had time for myself and like losing sight of who I am and like not being able to see friends or have any hobbies or anything like that. So feeling that that juxtaposition of like, I have to make the most of this time, but struggling to do that. And I think that was like the emotional nugget of, of the core of the what ended up becoming this idea for the book.

00:13:20:22 - 00:13:26:04
Matthew Krekeler
Okay. Had you gone to a camp yourself, with your daughter?

00:13:26:06 - 00:13:44:03
Evan S. Porter
I had never done a camp like in the book. Like a father daughter. Yeah, a camp, but, I was a big summer camp kid, like, okay, I went to, like, sleep, sleepaway camp. And I actually did think it was, like, a weekend with my dad. My own dad there one time, like, we went, for a weekend and like, the and like, I think was like the winter.

00:13:44:03 - 00:13:59:09
Evan S. Porter
I everyone say it was, like, cold. It was good. So yeah, it wasn't like a specifically like a bonding camp. But I do remember doing that with him. And, you know, the camp in the book is definitely based in my mind off of that camp I went to as a kid, like the way it was laid out and some of the activities and stuff like that.

00:13:59:11 - 00:14:18:07
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, I remember doing those kinds of things with my dad, going to into like a Koa campground or, yeah, different kinds of things. That's great. And, I'm going to look at some of my notes. Just, there are a couple of themes from the book that I wanted to explore with you.

00:14:18:07 - 00:14:42:23
Matthew Krekeler
Just get more of the writer's, perspective. And, yeah, ask about if they were inspired by different moments in your life. One of the things is he kind of tells, the main character in the book, he says, like the idea of saying, I love you, dad. And he has kind of a hard time doing that.

00:14:42:23 - 00:14:51:14
Matthew Krekeler
I think with his own dad. And it's something that he acknowledges he wish he did more. Could you speak to that a little bit?

00:14:51:16 - 00:15:18:01
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. I think that there's a there's these themes of masculinity in the book and like, all the dads in the book are being held back in some way by the expectations we have around masculinity and men and, you know, men and what it means to be a man and all those sorts of things. And John, the main character, I think is struggling on some level with being like emotionally open and vulnerable and because it's not something that he was ever modeled or shown by his dad.

00:15:18:01 - 00:15:38:09
Evan S. Porter
But, it's holding him back and his relationship with his daughter, you know, because he's not able to connect with her honestly, beyond jokes and games and, things like that. And when his old playbook of, being the fun dad is kind of not working anymore, he doesn't have any other tools in the toolbox, and he was never really taught how to do that.

00:15:38:09 - 00:15:45:20
Evan S. Porter
So, the big that's a big moment for him is learning how to overcome, you know, that programing.

00:15:45:22 - 00:16:13:08
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah, absolutely. And then another sweet moment is John and his daughter Avery. In the book. They have this adventure box that gets brought up a lot. And this idea of filling it with things that will be keepsakes, mementos, from different adventures. I just think that's such a cool idea. Is that something that you and your daughters have it?

00:16:13:10 - 00:16:32:09
Evan S. Porter
It was totally fictitious, like, I, you know, made it up for the story, but now we actually do have one now that heard that book. And, it was, I think, after the book came out or close to when the book was coming up, my wife actually bought me, like a big, like, wooden chest. Yeah. And we keep it, we keep it in the living room and it's kind of like decorative.

00:16:32:09 - 00:16:52:14
Evan S. Porter
And then like, when we go on a trip or we do something cool, like, we will have some kind of keepsake from it and we'll just, like, chuck it in there. And then one day it's going to be full of, like, all these little interesting, you know, tokens of our of our adventures together. And, but yeah, for the story, it was it was just meant to be.

00:16:52:16 - 00:17:07:13
Evan S. Porter
I think the, the idea of the story is like, John wants to bond with his daughter, like he's going to this camp with that goal in mind of like, reconnecting and bonding. And I was like, well, I'd love for that to be a physical representation of that, like, so that we can see and feel and know. Yeah, like that.

00:17:07:13 - 00:17:20:06
Evan S. Porter
They have achieved that together. And so that's kind of where I came up with that idea of, of the adventure box and, and no. Yeah. No, it's in our real life too that our living room right now and I love it. I can't wait to open it up one day and and see what we put in there.

00:17:20:08 - 00:17:40:06
Matthew Krekeler
That's great. Yeah. It's like a time capsule of all these memories. And that's part of the reason why I wanted to do a podcast is almost like a digital time capsule of all these stories. And me, as like a dad that fails every day, but trying to to learn as much as I can and, and then to look back and be like, oh, yeah, this was the time.

00:17:40:06 - 00:17:58:00
Matthew Krekeler
Like we were trying to we're struggling with this and trying to get, get better at this. And then little moments, like, take my daughter swimming for the first time like that, I can look back and say like, oh, yeah, like, this is what I was thinking about. And the physical thing too, I think is great.

00:17:58:04 - 00:18:12:13
Matthew Krekeler
Like, my wife and I, whenever we travel, we try to get, like, a little magnet, and then that little magnet from wherever we go goes on the fridge. And now those are used to put up, like, the kids homework and their car sheets themselves. And then.

00:18:12:14 - 00:18:18:12
Evan S. Porter
Yeah, we do that too. We do that too. The magnets are a really good one because you can keep them right there and you can see them every day. Yeah.

00:18:18:13 - 00:18:39:09
Matthew Krekeler
And then, and then lately, like the Christmas tree ornaments. So, sometimes you go to a place that has a particular Christmas tree. So like the, the Denver Zoo lights was one that we got like a little, giraffe ornament that we wrote the date on. And it's like the first time we went to the zoo lights with our kids, and that goes on our tree.

00:18:39:09 - 00:18:51:04
Matthew Krekeler
So, it's awesome, like, every year to take out those ornaments. And as we put them on the tree and the kids are helping us, we can say like, oh, yeah, that's that's when we did that. And it's just a great thing.

00:18:51:05 - 00:19:16:14
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. You know, I love that. It's there's always like this battle. I'm sure you have it in your house too, of like, clutter, and you don't want all this like, and you're taking up a room that you have to deal with. But, like, there is something really cool about. Like, if I go over to my mom's house and they open up a little box and you see, like, you know, some random thing from my childhood that, like, didn't need to be saved, but it's like, it is it takes you back and you're like, I'm so glad that we have this right now.

00:19:16:16 - 00:19:30:21
Evan S. Porter
So we're always, you know, trying to walk that line of, like, not having too much stuff and like, you know, the kids come home with like, bundles of artwork, like, every single day, like this high. Like, we can't keep all of it, but, you know, it is. I think it will be really special to have it later.

00:19:30:23 - 00:19:53:21
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah. The artwork is hard. I found myself just like, snap! If it's going to mean something to me, I snap a picture of it. At least I have like a digital memory of that before it goes in the recycle bin. But yeah, every week it's crazy. Like, especially like now I've got multiple kids in school and they every week they've got like a bunch of number, drawings, all that kind of stuff.

00:19:53:23 - 00:20:16:17
Matthew Krekeler
And then the Adventure Box is really great. I actually connected with, the dad who started, it's called Dad Boot Camp or, boot camp for new dads. And, they run programs at hospitals as kind of this. They call it a boot camp. But, yeah, it's like a training for soon to be dads. Amazing program.

00:20:16:17 - 00:20:31:01
Matthew Krekeler
But, he sent me, similar to what you were talking about. It was it almost looks like a cigar box, but this. Yeah. Like wooden box that had, I think, like, dad adventures on the top. And.

00:20:31:01 - 00:20:31:20
Evan S. Porter
That's so cool.

00:20:31:22 - 00:20:52:03
Matthew Krekeler
And I. And I've got that on my shelf and, put things in it, like, tickets to the Avs game when we took our daughter and things. So, yeah, I highly encourage, the dads listening to this, like, find those special things, that you want to save and and be intentional about the way that you honor those, those memories.

00:20:52:04 - 00:21:11:14
Matthew Krekeler
And it could be a cool thing to even to pass on, like, as your kids leave the house, like to then, pass that on, to them. And then, yeah, if you've got something like that, I'd love to see, hear about it. So, send me an email or, reach out to me on social media at Girl Dad Nation.

00:21:11:16 - 00:21:43:08
Matthew Krekeler
But yeah, I'd love to share those things. And then, yeah, having, going back to the book, you mentioned the masculinity aspect, and you have this part, where you talk about the book of Ryan and Ryan is this character who, kind of embodies this, like, masculine ideal, as some people would say, and he's got this, this code of, like, what a man should be.

00:21:43:08 - 00:22:16:01
Matthew Krekeler
And he's got, like, cold showers, like it's high intensity. Like, man shouldn't play video games. Like, like, everything is like it's heightened. And, I think it's interesting that you highlight that in the book because I think as men there's often this pressure, like you have to achieve and, you know, your, amount of muscle mass and like, and there's all of these different, like, standards, for being a man.

00:22:16:01 - 00:22:55:06
Matthew Krekeler
But but I think what's interesting is through these conversation conversations, like, there's so much more, to being a man and there's this, yeah. It's like, in the way that we connect with people and in the way that we love our spouses and love our kids. And, and there's a masculine energy that can also be feminine, like in, in the, the way that we think of feminine traits, but the way that we are in touch with emotions and, and relationships and, these ways that connect on a deeper level.

00:22:55:08 - 00:23:07:14
Matthew Krekeler
So, yeah. How how do the characters kind of discover those things? And what are your views on, those ideas?

00:23:07:16 - 00:23:40:04
Evan S. Porter
Yeah, it was such an important theme and topic for me in the book. And and like I said, like, I think all the all the dads, all the characters in the book are, are struggling with their own version of what they think is expected of them, whether it's like, how much money they earn or, you know, being two and two invested in work and not being present enough at home and and yeah, the character of Ryan, I think was a really fun one to write because it's such a, such a, cartoonishly, like, manly, you know, guy who, I think it's tough because I think if you're a guy and you go looking on

00:23:40:04 - 00:23:57:23
Evan S. Porter
the internet for any sort of self-help like you will inevitably wind up down one of these roads of like, yeah, it's like it's great to dress better and get in shape and do these sort of things. But then it's you slip into this dark side of like, well, you can't, you can't like be ever be vulnerable. And you have to be strong at all times.

00:23:57:23 - 00:24:31:17
Evan S. Porter
And you have to make this amount of money and you have to do x, y, z. And it becomes very like dogmatic and prescriptive and like, not, helpful. And I think, like Ryan is somebody on the end of finding out that like that's not helping him like have meaning in his life and he's, you know, he's lost he's lost his wife in a divorce and he's not losing his daughter because he's not able to, like, just connect with them in a, in a human like softer way, like you were saying, you know, and so, yeah, it was so, so important to me to work that into the book because I think it

00:24:31:19 - 00:24:46:01
Evan S. Porter
you can't get away from it. I think in terms of like living your life as a man and, and as a father, like, I think you have to start examining those sorts of things, whether you're, you're raising girls or whether you're raising boys, you know, it will come into play at some point.

00:24:46:03 - 00:25:16:20
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah, I think it's cool. Like over the course of the book, the way that the characters, start to bond with each other and relate to each other, even though they might have different perspectives or that, you know, they originally hate each other, maybe, and the way that they kind of sympathize with each other, like there's a guy who is kind of, consumed with his work, and even there's a moment where they kind of help him out because they know, like, he's sort of seen as a villain because he's, like, supposed to be away from technology.

00:25:16:20 - 00:25:43:11
Matthew Krekeler
But then all, you know, he all he does is, try to, do his work projects, but but they even see, like, okay, here's a guy who's, like, really trying and, and he's not doing it for, like, the wrong reasons necessarily, but, but trying to, like, find that balance. And then, in the book, too, you've got, I think, two working parents.

00:25:43:13 - 00:25:58:21
Matthew Krekeler
And, and then you have, I think John is both a coach and a parent. So. Yeah. What what's that dynamic like? Have you coached your kids sports?

00:25:58:23 - 00:26:18:12
Evan S. Porter
No, I, I've actually never coached myself. But my daughter, my oldest daughter is, like, really involved in soccer, just like everything is in the book. And, actually, like, another example of, like, life imitating art is like, she shortly after the book came out, she, like, wanted to try out for, like, the travel team, the fancy soccer team.

00:26:18:13 - 00:26:49:06
Evan S. Porter
So, and she made it. And so, like, now our life is, like, totally consumed with soccer or like, 24/7. Like, we, like, practice three days a week. We have, like, tournaments all weekend long. So, I'm kind of like living what I was writing about at the time. But yeah, I think that it's a key piece of the book is that like a lot of people, a lot of people have read the book and like, not been super thrilled with John for the way he he keeps this try out from her of joining the the team where he will no longer be her coach.

00:26:49:07 - 00:27:10:18
Evan S. Porter
And it is kind of like a, divisive moment in the book, sort of. But I think hopefully you kind of understand, like where he's coming from. He's just not ready to, like, give that up. And, because it's it's time with her and it's, it's what he considers like a big crux of their relationship. And if she goes off and as a different coach and he's not as involved in her life, that's just like snowballed from there.

00:27:10:18 - 00:27:25:10
Evan S. Porter
And since she's in middle school and since she's in high school and he's just really on the sideline of her life, and that's what he's scared of. But of course, like, you know, he has to learn to let that go a little bit. But, in the beginning of the book, he's not he's not there yet.

00:27:25:12 - 00:27:49:14
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah. It seems like a difficult, situation to kind of be in as a parent, because your primary role as a parent is to love on your kids and, like, do what's best for them and, to support them and love. But that could mean a lot of different things. And it doesn't always mean getting them to the star athlete.

00:27:49:16 - 00:28:10:18
Matthew Krekeler
But it could, and I think it totally depends on different families, different situations. But yeah, I sympathize with John. And like that's a lot to give up. And as you said, it's like, yeah, when you kind of commit to that, it's a lot of weekends, a lot of time away. Yeah. My, my kids are so small right now.

00:28:10:18 - 00:28:27:02
Matthew Krekeler
Like, we're just barely like, the oldest is interested in soccer. But not to that level of commitment just yet, but, Yeah, yeah, funny enough, I had, Oh, I had Richard Franklin, the dad of Missy Franklin, Olympic swimmer.

00:28:27:04 - 00:28:28:15
Evan S. Porter
Oh, wow.

00:28:28:17 - 00:28:55:19
Matthew Krekeler
And it was cute, like, talking to him, but he was like, you know, we were in just the right situation where, like, she was our only daughter, and they. But he was like. It was amazing investment like that. We had to put in, but like, constant hours, early morning practices, travel like, but they were in a place in their life, where they could invest both the time and the money to do that.

00:28:55:21 - 00:29:25:20
Matthew Krekeler
But he was like, that worked for our family. But it it's not necessarily something for everyone. Like, every one situation is different. And you ultimately have to like, decide as a parent how that works. And it doesn't make you a bad father or bad mother if, if you can't do those commitments. But yeah, you have to look at the situation where you're and, and like what you're able to invest and, and the best way that you can do that for sure.

00:29:25:20 - 00:29:41:22
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. I think, you hit the nail on the head. Like, you have to sound like you're giving up something. You know, you're sacrificing if you choose to, to do these things. You're giving up a lot of your time. It could be a lot of money, you know, to get involved in, like, high level sports. Yeah.

00:29:41:22 - 00:30:07:06
Evan S. Porter
It's not it's not just, oh, you know, your your kid wants to do it, so you got to support them. It's like it's more complicated than that. Yeah. And I think you're the age too, that Avery is in the book was important to me of being 11 and, like, going to middle school. I just remember that in my own life of being a huge shift where, like, you start to care about your friends and where you fit in in social circles, like way, way more than you care about your parents and your family.

00:30:07:08 - 00:30:26:04
Evan S. Porter
But almost to the point of like where this is like the age where you just like, embarrassed by your parents existence, whereas like, you know, elementary school I think is is a lot, you don't have to deal with that as much as like, that's a big shift. And I think John knows it's coming. It's like, okay, like she's right on the brink of, like, wanting nothing to do with me.

00:30:26:04 - 00:30:31:21
Evan S. Porter
So this is like my last chance to to still be the hero in her eyes.

00:30:31:23 - 00:31:03:07
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah. I also think in little ways, it's cool that, you point out how interests shift and to be interested in why your daughter is interested in. And she was always this like soccer kid and just love soccer. Wanted to try out, for these, high teams. And then, he notices like there's a part at camp where they paint nails, and she is, like, now interested in that and in a way that surprises him.

00:31:03:09 - 00:31:25:02
Matthew Krekeler
And so even little things, it doesn't mean you have to commit to a full like soccer schedule, but even little things, day to day, finding ways to connect with your kids and putting yourself in maybe an uncomfortable situation, like if it's not something that you're particularly interested in, but ways to get out of your comfort zone and and connect with your daughter.

00:31:25:02 - 00:31:30:18
Matthew Krekeler
Like the way that she is interested in painting nails and like, okay, how can I get on their level?

00:31:30:20 - 00:31:50:19
Evan S. Porter
Yeah, I think that's such a huge it's a huge part of being a girl that, like you don't not everything gets to be on your terms. Like, yeah, like we were talking before this, like, you know, I love watching football with my daughter. Like, she's really into football. Which is awesome. But, yeah, she's also, like, really into, like, skincare, like skincare is big with, like, girls that age right now.

00:31:50:19 - 00:32:24:01
Evan S. Porter
So like, they're, like, doing, like, masks and like, serums and lotions and stuff and like, yeah, you know, the, the old school where they might need to be like, okay. That's right. That's mom's department. Like, you deal with all of that. Like, just hear when she's ready to talk about guys stuff like, but, yeah, you know, you miss out on so much if you're not willing to, like, like, I don't understand, like, have the, the skincare stuff, but like, you know, still ask questions about it, like when I can or like, she's got a kid that's in the Minecraft and like, you just have no interest in Minecraft.

00:32:24:03 - 00:32:33:01
Evan S. Porter
Like, you know, you can ask them questions, you can learn a little bit. So a little bit of interest, you know, you have to meet in the middle somewhere sometimes.

00:32:33:03 - 00:33:06:00
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah, exactly. And I also think it's equally important. As much as, like, the whole podcast really is about like, connecting with our daughters and being a better parent. But I also think that it's important to, work on the other relationships in your life. Relationship with your spouse or relationship with friends. And yeah, I think like that can be equally as difficult for guys is like making that time, for friends because life gets in the way.

00:33:06:02 - 00:33:29:05
Matthew Krekeler
You've got all these commitments, as you mentioned, like, all the soccer events going on. But, but I think it's important to, like, make that time for you as a guy and to have that community of other guys, for support as well. That like, yes, life gets in the way, but it shouldn't, yeah.

00:33:29:09 - 00:34:00:21
Matthew Krekeler
It shouldn't, like, take over, like who you are. And but those, those things that inspire you, before you had kids, like, can still be things that that keep you going and that you can share with your kids. Yeah. Can you speak a little bit to that, like the, the guys group, kind of thing since even, the main character, John, talks about, like, like the guys group is like, yeah, you're not like, come to group anymore.

00:34:00:23 - 00:34:07:19
Matthew Krekeler
And then, and then he has even, like a magic club, is that correct? So he calls it.

00:34:07:21 - 00:34:09:12
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:09:14 - 00:34:14:12
Matthew Krekeler
I just thought that that was super cool. I actually, it my dad was a magician.

00:34:14:14 - 00:34:15:00
Evan S. Porter
Oh, cool.

00:34:15:00 - 00:34:31:20
Matthew Krekeler
So that's like growing up, I was around magic shops and, Yeah, performed, like, small magic shows as a kid. Is that something like. Yeah. Where did the magic Shop thing come from? And. Yeah, just the idea of, like, the the guys group.

00:34:31:22 - 00:34:49:13
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. The, the the magic thing. It's like one of my old hobbies, like, and I, I will admit that I don't really have as much time for it now as I used to, but, like, I was, Yeah, I was super in the magic, like in middle school. High school. And, like, I'll still dabble with it sometimes, like, I used to, like, hang out.

00:34:49:13 - 00:35:09:06
Evan S. Porter
I used to hang out at the magic shop or, like, I, like, worked there under the table for, like, a little while, like, it was. So it was really cool. And so I, I've always loved it and I thought it was the perfect, like sort of hobby for John to have that he's like sort of discarded and lost touch with and along along with that, like his friend group, like he just hasn't made the time for them.

00:35:09:08 - 00:35:32:17
Evan S. Porter
And so he doesn't even, like, know how to interact with other guys really anymore. Like because he's, he's been all in on being a dad. And to the and to the point where he's like his is relationship with his wife, like fall by the wayside a little bit to not to the point where they're that are getting divorced or anything like that, but just like becomes a parent, that it hasn't been nurtured like the way it should be.

00:35:32:19 - 00:35:49:15
Evan S. Porter
And those are all things that he has to face throughout the book. And, you know, I think I think things we all struggle with like to be, to your point, like you, there's just not a lot of hours in the day to, you know, you have to have time alone time with your kid, time with your spouse, and time with your friends is just like, it's almost impossible.

00:35:49:15 - 00:36:11:17
Evan S. Porter
But, you know, I think in, in some sense, like, as, like your kids get older, like some of that time can't open back up. And I think, you know, it's just it's it's important, like, I think that, you know, my, my parents always told me, like, your relationship with your spouse is the most important thing. It's like the bedrock of of everything in your family.

00:36:11:17 - 00:36:33:13
Evan S. Porter
Yeah. And so and like, I believe that subscribe to that doesn't mean that it's easy to, to push though. Yeah. It's it's really, really hard and you know always, always adjusting. But but I do believe that in. Yeah. You know, in my own life, like, I think it's the friend piece is the hardest one, I think because, you know, they're, they're not in your house.

00:36:33:13 - 00:36:46:21
Evan S. Porter
Right. Like they're, they're in other places. They've got their own schedule. So it's really, really hard to make time to get together with friends. But, I always feel way better when I, when I do like it, it, you know, feels fills up my cup, so to speak, you know.

00:36:46:23 - 00:37:25:15
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah. That's great. I think more naturally women tend to be better at like fostering those relationships. And I think for men sometimes there's like this distance. But I think it's important. And I think that's great. I also heard from, one of my guests on the podcast. I can't remember exactly who said it, but basically the effect of, you know, like, you're a dad, you'll always be a dad, but your kids are only going to be in your house for so long, and and when your kids are out of the nest, like your spouse is going to be there, or you hope that your spouse is going to be there.

00:37:25:15 - 00:37:33:04
Matthew Krekeler
So it's just as important, if not even more important, that you work on that relationship.

00:37:33:06 - 00:37:52:02
Evan S. Porter
Yeah, I totally agree. Totally agree. And that's like and that's another element of the book is the ticking clock of like, yeah, you know, your kids are only home until they're whatever it is 18. And then, you know, your time, everything gets less and less and less and less and less. And so, you know, the temptation is to cling to it at the expense of other things.

00:37:52:04 - 00:38:04:20
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah. Well, Evan, thank you so much. This has been awesome. Is there any other thoughts, advice or. Yeah, just things you want to share. Before I get to my final questions.

00:38:04:22 - 00:38:33:09
Evan S. Porter
You know, I just, I really appreciate you reading the book and sharing it with your audience. And I think there's not a lot of books that are written for, men or dads in this space, I think, like, there's plenty of male authors, but, you know, outside of, like, sci fi or horror or, you know, military fiction and like books about relations, ships and family and love and those sorts of things that are that are kind of written with guys in mind are like very few and far between.

00:38:33:09 - 00:38:54:10
Evan S. Porter
And so, you know, I hope we can get you guys to get out there and read, even if it's not in my book. There's other there's other writers that are doing really good work in that space, too. And I think that, reading makes us better people. And so I, you know, just means a lot to me to get to share my, you know, worldview and my characters and my story with the world.

00:38:54:12 - 00:39:19:17
Matthew Krekeler
Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. And I, I, I've been on a big, like, audiobook kick, so, yeah, like previously the CEO of Love Sack. Like, he had a great book that I, I listened to the, the audiobook and, and several other people. So, check out the Girl That Nation channel for other authors out there. Yeah, but continue to take those opportunities to get better.

00:39:19:19 - 00:39:50:17
Matthew Krekeler
Inspire yourself. And Evan, thank you so much. This has been awesome. And highly recommend you guys check out the book D&D camp. Wherever books are sold or in audiobook form on audible is where I found it. And then Evan, for my last question, and I ask all of the guests this think about your daughters, and I want to give you an opportunity to send a special message directly to them.

00:39:50:19 - 00:39:59:04
Matthew Krekeler
So pretend I'm not here and I want to. I want to give you an opportunity to end the episode. Just a message to your daughters.

00:39:59:06 - 00:40:34:21
Evan S. Porter
Oh, wow. Okay. As you know, girl, I just hope that you know how much dad loves you and how important it is to me that we have fun together. I think the most important thing in our house is, is having fun and being with each other. And I think when I think of what I want you guys to remember about me long after I'm gone is just as laughter and fun and playing games and and just feeling safe enough to, to be happy like that together.

00:40:34:21 - 00:40:44:11
Evan S. Porter
And, that's what I'm striving to do every, every single day. Even if I fall short of it sometimes.