Everything Else is Dust (ft. Shawn Nelson, Lovesac)

In this episode I welcome Shawn Nelson, the Founder and CEO of Lovesac, to delve into the entrepreneurial journey he's embarked on and how it intertwines with his role as a dedicated father. Inspired by his recent book, Let Me Save You 25 Years, we explore the invaluable lessons Shawn has learned along the way, fondly termed 'Shawnisms', and their relevance to his experiences in both business and fatherhood.

It's important to keep everything in proper priority. Shawn thinks about his wife and kids in everything he does. He often reminds himself, "Everything Else is Dust."

LINKS

About Shawn Nelson

Let Me Save You 25 Years - Book

Lovesac - Modern Furniture

@shawnoflovesac


Thank you to Shawn for sharing his journey and for being part of Girl Dad Nation.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Fatherhood and Business Balance
• 13:48 Fatherhood
• 25:32 Balancing Work and Family Life
• 37:13 Fatherhood and Encouraging Children's Passions

Transcript

Shawn Nelson: 0:37

By the time they're 18, you've spent 90% of the time you're ever going to spend with them and you only got 10% left for the whole balance of their life, of your life with theirs. And so how are you engaged in that 90%? Are you engaged?

Matthew Krekeler: 1:05

Welcome to Girl Dad Nation. In this episode I welcome Shawn Nelson. Shawn is the CEO and founder of Lovesac Company and Lovesac is celebrating their 25 years and I wanted to have Shawn on the show because I just listened to his audiobook Let me save you 25 years detailing his journey with Lovesac Company. So, yeah, let's get to it, sean, welcome to the show. Thank you so glad to be here. So I just got through your audiobook. I love audiobooks and podcasts because I like to, as one of your concepts is work in the seams and cracks, so I get a lot of research done when I listen as I'm driving and doing other household tasks. But then I did make it to the Lovesac store and picked up a physical copy of your book, which is even better, I think, because you're missing out on all of the pictures and all of these great things that you don't get from the audiobook.

Matthew Krekeler: 2:06

But there's some treasures in the physical copy. Thank you.

Shawn Nelson: 2:09

Yeah, strange book, I try you know, I read all these business books, so I tried to create something that's unique and, you know, not to be found elsewhere.

Matthew Krekeler: 2:18

And then you're also a dad, a dad of four, three girls and a boy. So, yeah, I wanted to dive a little bit into your family life and, yeah, tell me a little bit about your kids. They're a little bit older now, so you've had more experience as a dad than I. My oldest is almost five. But, yeah, what was that like? Where does fatherhood fit into your story as a CEO man? My life as a father?

Shawn Nelson: 2:50

kind of paralleles my life building the business. My oldest now is 15. So I have 15 year old daughter, 13 year old son, and then 11 and nine year old daughters, and so three, three daughters, and all of them were born in Connecticut when Love Sack was out there, having relocated there from our home in Utah where we started the company because we had to live through a complete chapter 11 reorganization as a business, and it was terrifying and humiliating and embarrassing. And in the wake of all of that, about it would have been about, I guess, almost eight or nine years into the business Since it was started as a side hustle in college. I'm also having kids, you know, every two years. My wife is adamant that we try to have a close family and so, starting in 2008, 10, 12, 14, right in the thick of probably the busiest time in my life Besides the business, I was also involved in a lot of things with my church.

Shawn Nelson: 4:05

I was also, toward the end of that time frame, pursuing a master's degree and then later teaching at a university in Manhattan, and so it was just a gnarly thick, difficult, crazy time.

Shawn Nelson: 4:19

I was, I think, traveling to Asia four or five times a year. I was probably traveling in general, about 50% of the time my wife had no help from mother, family, et cetera while we were living in Stanford, because all of our extended family was back in Utah and we spent a decade out there raising these kids kind of on our own. My wife is a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very long Just trying to have a real, real life even more on her own to some degree. While I was traveling and in those seems and cracks of being home on weekends or whenever I could be home, I'm trying to be as good a father as I possibly could, trying to be as engaged, trying to be not tired, trying to change a lot of diapers, make a lot of bean burritos all the things that I could possibly do to help my partner through all of this.

Matthew Krekeler: 5:13

That's great. Yeah, it takes such a team. I'm so blessed to have my wife and her and I both work, so we both try to balance each of our jobs. But, like, at the end of the day, like our priority is to our family and to our kids and but, yeah, it's hard when you're seeing a vision and you're trying to see your vision through, no matter what area of your career you're in.

Matthew Krekeler: 5:38

But but it's awesome that I've talked to so many people like yourself that are doing all of these things but, like they love being a dad at the heart of it and that's kind of like what inspired me to start the podcast is just to hear from people. You get all of their business books, you get all of their like advice on life, but how does family life fit into all of that? And, yeah, so it's great talking to you just about that. Yeah, when, when you first became a dad, I want to kind of turn back the clock, like 15 years, and ask like what that moment was like. You had been running your company for several years before that, but now you're in this new role. How was it different? In what ways? Like, for the challenges the same and what ways were the challenges unexpected now that you're a father?

Shawn Nelson: 6:32

Nothing can prepare you to be a parent and you know it doesn't really come with an instruction manual. It's funny. You know you don't need a license. You know you need a license to buy, to at least drive a car. You need a business license to get into business, but any, any idiot can have a kid and so, thankfully, this idiot just approached it.

Shawn Nelson: 6:59

I think, like everything else in life, which is just to jump in with both feet and do my best, and at that time, like I said, it was probably the busiest, hardest time in my life and I've reflected on that a lot. Like it's interesting to me like so, as a person of faith believes in God, believes in you know, there's a plan to all this, etc. It's interesting to me that for most people, I think it's kind of the human condition that we are thrust into fatherhood, parenthood, during the hardest time. You know we're trying to start a career, we're trying to feed our family, we're trying to make some money, we're trying to get ahead, we're maturing, we're wrestling with our own you know development, hormones, growth, manhood, whether that begins at 18 or you know some young age for some people, or whether it happens in your 20s or even 30s In any of those moments I think it's still like a crucible of activity that we're expected just to juggle being a father, especially in today's day and age where you know, I think, a lot more is expected than in times past. Thankfully, I think that dads if I read my history right, you know sometimes it was just about, you know, siring a son, and then you know, the rest was left to mothers and grandparents. In this day and age, you know, a father is, I think, expected to carry equal weight, or at least you know their share of the load for sure, in parenting. And of course, we don't just have to, we get to, and it's such a blessing. But it's hard and I don't know what the answer is. I don't know why that's the case, but my speculation, you know, if there is a plan to all this and if it's meant to be this way because this is one thing I wrestle with again, let me come back to that. I'll build on it.

Shawn Nelson: 9:07

I know people who, you know, life didn't lead them to a marriage, or a successful marriage, or to children at that stage. They make a bunch of money, they retire and now they're raising their. You know, they get to be this active father in their 40s or 50s, and that's an interesting dynamic at the same time. Well, you know, or by the way, some people have a child very late in life and they get this chance to kind of in a different stage in life, when they're a little bit more set up, when they're a little bit more stable, to be a father, and I think that's a beautiful thing.

Shawn Nelson: 9:40

All I know is my story and in my case, like so many others, it was difficult and thick and hard and busy when I was thrust into being a father, and I think that there is some meaning in that.

Shawn Nelson: 9:55

I think that the reality is life is hard. I think it's kind of meant to be hard, I think it's meant to put us through that refiner's fire, and being a father is a major piece of that and in fact, it becomes and it should become, I think, the most important piece of it, like, and so I don't have a good answer as to why it's that way, but it's that way for most around the world, I think, and I think we just need to embrace it and roll with it and accept it and our kids don't get to see us, you know, 12 hours a day and spend all this quality time with us, because we're out earning money, we're out building, we're out growing, and I think we're meant to do that to some degree and to juggle this and I don't know. Those are my reflections. So at that time it was difficult, it was hard, but I jumped in with both feet and did my best. Yeah, may I ask what?

Matthew Krekeler: 10:45

age were you when you had your first daughter?

Shawn Nelson: 10:48

I was 31 years old when I had our first child, and so, you know, late by some standards, late by Mormon standards. I'm a member of the Church Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints. You know, sometimes we get accused of being married very young and starting families very young, and that happens in my case. That's kind of late, I think, probably pretty average these days In terms of timing, and probably would have been well on into my career Were it not for the fact that Love Sack had just been through a really hard time. We'd just been forced to relocate the company to Connecticut, out of our home, from Utah. So it was a really it was just a tough time and I'm glad that we survived.

Shawn Nelson: 11:34

And of course, looking back, those are very precious years and that's the trick, right, is to try not to wish it away. It's so easy to be looking forward to. Well, if I could just make this kind of money, or we could just pay this off, or if we could just get into the next place, or we could just, you know, afford a bigger car, whatever it is. And meanwhile, if we're not careful, we are inadvertently wishing away, yeah, these precious years of our kids lives, of our life as a father, and once they're gone. They're gone. You know that.

Shawn Nelson: 12:12

That staff that gets shared a lot right now. You know, by the time they're 18, you've spent 90% of the time you're ever going to spend with them and you only got 10% left for the whole balance of their life, of your life with theirs. You only have 10% left of that time and so how are you engaged in that 90%? Are you engaged? Are you wishing it away because of outside factors? You know, like money and things like that, and we all do it. I think, at least I believe we all do it, and I try hard to fight against that.

Matthew Krekeler: 12:46

Yeah, time goes by so fast. Like I'm 30 now and so, if I did the math right, I was like 25 when my first daughter was born. And yeah, now I have three kids in just that short amount of time and already, like my daughter's almost going to be in kindergarten. I'm like, wow, where did all the time go? But, yeah, I feel so blessed to have this opportunity to be a dad and like to still pursue all these other things and in a lot of ways I feel like not. My new experience as a father has made me a better man and a better like employee and worker and coworker and friend, and it's just like infused, the way that I see the world and the things that I value and the way that, like I see other people and like what I want them to accomplish. So I feel so blessed for the opportunity now that it's not just like compartmentalized but it's like fully engulfed, like just like who I want to represent and become.

Matthew Krekeler: 13:49

And one of your you call them Seanisms, but these lessons that you share in your book, one of them kind of goes against the notion of the well, it's sort of a different approach than the fake it till you make it kind of philosophy, but I like yours better.

Matthew Krekeler: 14:08

You say be what you will be, not what you are.

Matthew Krekeler: 14:12

And you were proving that in your company when you had little love sack, like going out and trying to build relationships. And I think at one point you mentioned you had a partnership with Red Bull at some events, and it's like you have this huge multi-million dollar company and you wanted to be in the same space, but instead of being like, well, I won't, I need to wait until I can get to that point, I will like just always kind of putting that off to the future, like you just did what you wanted to be and you took orders. You never said like, well, we don't have a factory, we don't have, like, all these things in place, and in a way you said yes and then found the way to make it happen. And I think the point I wanted to make with fatherhood, as you said, you don't get a manual, you kind of just get thrown into it. But in a lot of ways, like everyone's learning and the only way to grow is to just dive in and be what you hope to be.

Shawn Nelson: 15:16

If you're listening to this podcast, then you're already ahead of the game. You're trying, you know you're making an effort, like any idiot can be a father, you know it doesn't take that much. But you know, to be a dad, to be a great father to children, to raise children, that takes some work and some effort, like anything in life. And so, in terms of this idea of be what you will be, not what you are, yeah, when the call came through from, you know, the biggest retailer in the United States, wanting 12,000 little love sacks, my behavior, my tone of voice, my response yeah, we're the best not being bad company in the world. And it wasn't a lie. We were probably the only not being bad company in the world at that time, you know, making phone bags, whatever. But I tried to speak like it, dress like it, act like it, behave like it and ultimately it became true. I think the same can be true for fatherhood. You know, just imagine for one minute what a great dad looks like and when I say that I mean that metaphorically how they act, how they speak, how they behave, how they interact with their children, how they show up the energy level, the commitment, the decision making. Okay, act like that, be what you will be, not what you are. You might be a scrub who's barely hanging on financially, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, in our 20s or 30s, who knows? But you can choose to be what you will be, not just what you are. And especially as a father, you know we only get in the reality, back to the human condition. We may only get these precious times after work, in the evenings, on the weekends, maybe, to interface with our children In the mornings, waking up, to help out, make some breakfast. Whatever it may be. Okay, how are you in those moments? How do you show up? Are you being that great father or are you just being you? And you know, in this day and age it's really popular to be like well, that's just how I am, that's just who I am, that's just. I don't believe that. You know we can be anything we want to be.

Shawn Nelson: 17:44

You know it sounds tried, it sounds like self-help, but it's absolutely true. It starts with a choice. And look, I fall short every day, which is why you know I have certain things I try to do to keep myself in line, a morning mantra, you know, a morning routine, because I'm always falling short, I'm always a little bit tired. I'm always a little bit, you know, less engaged, less present than I probably should be, but I'm trying and I'm trying to become that and the best part is, when you try on a consistent basis, things will become a habit and the things that you were weak at will. You will almost inadvertently become strong and then you'll be even more aware of other weaknesses and shortcomings you have, let's say, as a father, because you've leveled up and you'll always be chasing it. And then by the time you arrive anywhere, your kids will probably be, you know, leaving the house and you've lost your chance. See, you better be trying, otherwise it will escape you.

Matthew Krekeler: 19:13

Yeah, sean, do you have a mantra Like? If you were to summarize, like Sean, philosophy, taking your Seanisms or whatever and putting a mantra kind of thing together as a father, what would that be?

Shawn Nelson: 19:26

Well, there's a number of ways I can answer that, but I'll start with I wear, you know, my wedding ring, which has evolved over time. I have this newer one that came after we had the four kids and it has these six black diamonds in it and of course, it represents me and my wife and my four children. And on the inside of this ring there's an inscription, and it's one of the Seanisms that I share in the book and I expound on in the book Let Me Save you 25 Years. Is this Seanism called Everything Else is Dust? And it's referring to everything else aside from these six souls, including my own, my own, my own mental well-being, physical well-being as a provider, especially my wife's.

Shawn Nelson: 20:13

She comes first, even before the kids. It's something I believe and I know that's heretical to say in this day and age. You know it almost sounds like abrasive to what your kids don't come first. Listen. I believe when we put our spouse, you know, our partner, first, it has the best impact on the kids. They know it, they feel it, they grow up in an environment of love. You know it's easy for parents to, in the name of our children, neglect our spouse, you know, even roll our eyes or, you know, argue in the extreme case, you know, fight, disagree openly, etc. And it's not to say that my wife and I don't disagree, but I think that we do very. We make a strong effort to be aligned, especially in front of the children, and to truly be aligned, to truly like love each other, care about each other, put the others' needs first and when that happens, I believe it has the most profound effect on the kids, more than any amount of attention or love I could give them directly. Now, of course it's not to say we neglect our children, I'm just saying that's my priority. And then, of course, the other four members of this little clan and that makes the six diamonds.

Shawn Nelson: 21:41

But I try to remind myself daily everything else is dust. Now you're looking at a person who likes things. I collect old cars, I drive them, I dirt bike. You know we boat, we ski, we do all this stuff, we have stuff, we do stuff, but it's all dust, it's all garbage compared to these six souls.

Shawn Nelson: 22:03

And if we accidentally let these things, I share a very personal story in the book where my dad berated me for losing a gas cap and of course it was just one of these things that happens in our life. But I doubt what he intended was to make me feel less important than his precious locking gas cap that I left on the bumper and it fell off but it was lost. But that's how it made me feel at this stupid age of 13. Because, you know, we're undeveloped and we don't process everything and we can't look at things with perspective because we don't have any perspective at 13. And if we're not careful, you know we can have those kinds of effects on our children.

Shawn Nelson: 22:51

And so if we ever and so whenever anything is broken, lost, scratched, dented, destroyed, I try very, very hard to pump my brakes. Remember, that thing is just garbage, that thing is dust, that thing is unimportant compared to my relationship with my. No, it doesn't mean I won't teach them a lesson, Doesn't mean I won't try to call it to their attention that you know they should be careful, that they should treat things carefully. Why? Why should they treat things carefully? You know, because you know you tie it back to work and effort and time away from home. Even you know that's going too far, probably for a kid. But my point is it's important to teach our children, but not at the, not at the emotional expense of damaging them, and so keeping all this stuff in perspective is something it's one of my most important Shaunisms that I try to live by and remember. All this other stuff is dust and we don't want to accidentally, you know put it ahead of the relationships we have, especially with our spouse and children.

Matthew Krekeler: 23:59

Yeah, absolutely, I completely agree with that. I think everything and proper priority. And I think, as you said, a lot of people focus so much on their kids, which is a good thing, but they lose sight of their spouse, this person that they were first called to love. And I think that our expression of love with our spouse is a witness to our kids in the way that, like we are to love and the way that they're loved. And it's a challenge too, like if I'm doing something for my wife and helping out and or whatever it is like my kids see that and it's like okay, like dad is there, he's present, like this is a team, like we're all together, we've created this family at home. We're all part of that.

Matthew Krekeler: 24:45

And then, yeah, so it's not this like sort of owed mentality that parents sometimes get into, where, like everything kind of focus around the kids and like even the weekends are prioritized, like around the kids, soccer and all these other kinds of activities, and we get busy and I'm sure, like, as my kids get older, there'll be all sorts of obligations that we'll have, but we make an effort, like in our family. Church is important to us and so we take time to pray as a family, we take time to go to church on the weekends and then everything kind of falls in line around those things that we first prioritized, but then also making time to do the fun things as a family, to travel and to do different events and things. But yeah, I completely agree with what you were saying about like you have to put things in perspective.

Shawn Nelson: 25:40

Absolutely. And look, it's tricky, it's hard. You get the chance as a father to be, you know, I'll say it this way the CEO of your family, and maybe it's a co-CEO, you know, of course, with your wife or spouse or partner, whatever. But there's a reason CEOs get paid a lot of money. It's because it's hard to be a CEO and you have to make tough decisions and it's hard. You say, well, what's the right decision? Like, oh my gosh, like you know, my kids soccer games or my wife's? I can't answer that for you, but I will say this if you are really honest with yourself, if you're honest with yourself and you're being honest with yourself and you're really trying to view, you know, your decisions on a daily basis, weekly, monthly, you know yearly basis. Through the lens of honesty, you'll know. You know if you're kind of being a little bit neglectful of your spouse or you know if you're kind of dodging your kids because you're tired. You know, and that can happen on a daily basis, minute to minute basis, and you and I would challenge you to push yourself out of your comfort zone. Be honest. If you've fallen short, if you've, you know, if you've made mistakes. Start now, start in the next moment, you know, shutting the laptop, turning off the phone, trying to engage, and then, you know, scold yourself silently when you find yourself drifting back to your phone in front of your kids. And you know, and it's hard, these things are hard, but that's why they pay you the big bucks and I'm joking, right, no one, you don't get paid for being a father. But what's wild is, isn't it more important? You know you might get paid a lot in whatever your professional role is.

Shawn Nelson: 27:33

I'm the CEO of a public company. My duties as a father are more important. Do I act like that? Now, a lot of people are counting on me and it's tricky, sean. How do you? How do you then? What? What? You don't show up. You go to every kid's everything and you never show up as a CEO.

Shawn Nelson: 27:51

No, because, by the way, if I fail at that, I can't provide. But sometimes we hide, sometimes we dodge our kids in the name of. Well, I'm making money for them, I'm doing this for them, aren't I? If you're really honest with yourself and you try to be honest with yourself every day, you can find ways to be a great father and a great earner, or whatever. And, by the way, something's got to give. Like you know, maybe there are sacrifices you'll make in your career.

Shawn Nelson: 28:28

You know, right now, for instance, I'm often as an entrepreneur, I'm often compelled to invest in this, get involved in that, advise, sit on a board, take on this, be, you know, be part of this. Start. This other side hustle, and part of my morning mantra that I read to myself reminds me not to do that Doesn't mean that you know, I don't have investments. I have, you know, I'm trying to diversify, I'm trying to, you know, build a retirement, whatever, but a lot of that's just passive and I'm trying not to be a serial entrepreneur.

Shawn Nelson: 29:01

What Isn't that kind of unambitious, sean? Look, my ambitions for Love Sack are huge. I think we can build it into a multi-billion dollar company. But if I'm trying to do that and I'm trying to do one or two other startups and I'm trying to be a good dad, look, some things got to give. And so I choose to forego most of those opportunities, almost all of them, in the name of okay, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that, and that's all I'm going to do. And look, maybe it won't make me a billionaire, but I've known plenty of billionaires and a hundred millionaires, and many of them would, if pushed to be honest, trade places with me to be on their first wife, to have children that know them and like them. What's that worth?

Matthew Krekeler: 29:57

Yeah, I think, as you said, we have so many blessings right in front of us sometimes and we can kind of get caught up in chasing the next thing, especially when it comes to money. People see, oh, if I had a bigger house, extra zero in my bank account, all these things would be easy. And we neglect the blessings that are right in front of us sometimes. And, as you said, there's people who make far more than I do, even more than you do, and they're still not happy and they might not have the blessings that I look at every day and say I get to wake up with my kids. My daughters are telling me every day, daddy, I love you, and they're excited when I get to come home at five o'clock. All of those things. I have to remind myself as much as I want all of these things and hopefully to be able to provide for them, to be thankful for what I have every day and, by the way, on the other side of that, when they're gone and they're doing, their own thing and you're proud of them.

Shawn Nelson: 30:56

Who are you left with? You're left with yourself, how you feel about yourself. You're left with your spouse, and then you might have another 30, 40 years to kill without any of those things. 40 years to kill without any of those little blessings on a daily basis. So don't wish them away, even though you're in the thick of it. And it's hard to do, you know, because we all, we all, are feeling the pressure, you know, and by and let me share one other anecdote that it's interesting because they're hard to come by I had a friend who made a ton of money and retired very young, like in his early 40s, still has, you know, all of his kids at home and I'm really jealous.

Shawn Nelson: 31:39

It's like, oh man, maybe I should, you know, like if my family really matters to me, maybe that's what I should do, find a way to do that, then I could spend all my time with them. But the reality is you can't. They got to go to school, they got to do their thing, they got to be on their own. So now you know he rides his bike a lot and he's actually told me one time it was really interesting. He pulled me aside and sent me a note and told me you know, I kind of admire where you're at because, sean, you seem to be able to spend a lot of time with your family. You try to prioritize that, but you're building something. He said my kids don't see me work and I'm worried about what that might do to them and their own work ethic or their own perception about reality and about life.

Shawn Nelson: 32:24

So if we, if we so love our family, shouldn't we just spend all of our time with them? I don't think so. I don't think that's really the plan, you know. I think I think there's a reason. You know, when Adam and Eve left the garden, they were commanded to. You know they would. They would have to eat by the sweat of their own brow. I think that is part of the plan. I think it would all be.

Shawn Nelson: 32:46

It would be nice for any of us to inherit a bunch of money and to then be financially secure or, by the way, just earn a bunch of money young and be financially secure so we can spend all our time with our family. Would we or would we be, you know, chasing another condo here or there and trying to navigate the renters who trash the place while we're building our inheritance that we got. You know what I mean. Would we actually spend all that time on our family? I don't know that we would.

Shawn Nelson: 33:11

You know, I'd like to believe that, but at the point being, I think for most people, the vast, vast majority of people, this situation we're thrust into, where we've got to work hard even as we're trying to not wish it away, is the crucible we're meant to live in, to develop into more godly creatures ourselves, and that's you don't become stronger, better, faster, you don't become a smoother stone without rolling down the hill and having your rough edges knocked off. And I think so. That's my own meandering, I don't know contemplation on this harsh reality that we live in, but it's what I believe.

Matthew Krekeler: 34:00

Yeah, I like that philosophy too, where you're like, you're always like being open. You have in the book being an avid learner and a continuous learner and I think as much as I think being at home would be great. I know there's a certain aspect. I love what I do. I'm a video, I work in video production and I love it. I've been with the same company for almost nine years and we've made all these amazing video series.

Matthew Krekeler: 34:25

And my wife loves being a social worker and she works full-time in her organization. So together we come home and we're re-energized by the work that we do and being able to share that with our kids and hopefully inspire them to go out and see whatever they're dream through. And that's what I love about Girl Dad Nation too is like there was a lot of pressure on my wife when we had our kids to then leave everything and just be a stay-at-home mom. And there's nothing wrong with stay-at-home mothers, like that's a blessing in itself and there's many people that are called to that. But I was like super supportive of my wife wanting to continue on with the work that she was doing and like and at this stage where my daughters are super young and the whole world is available to them.

Matthew Krekeler: 35:21

I love having conversations with so many different people and so many different backgrounds and like showing them like there's all these different things available to them and at the core of like what my wife and I are called to is being a father and a mother, and that's beautiful. But I love just how people can balance that and it's not like it doesn't have to be this or that, and I even see this like in the workplace. I love that kind of workplace culture is being more open to family life and like I bring my kids to the office fairly often and I love that we're being, like as a culture, more open to these things to make it work so that like it's not so compartmentalized in these different areas and that my kids can really see like all these good things out in the world and find their own purpose.

Shawn Nelson: 36:17

I agree and, by the way, there's not one right answer. I have a friend who's a stay-at-home dad and in a way I'm kind of jealous of that, like I talk a good game, but if I were really committed I would have sold all my stock in Love Sack and just been there. Yeah, I don't know because, by the way, that's not me, like I don't know. Even if I had done that, if I would be there more than I am now, because I'm not maybe wired that way where my friend maybe is wired that way. And, by the way, I think women this is a really tough thing, I think for a lot of women wrestling with, well, I feel guilt because I'm not out there working if I'm a stay-at-home mom, or I feel guilt because I am out there working because I really just. But we need the money. We can't survive without it. I don't have the right answer. I think we have to do what we have to do to survive. That's the cold, hard reality.

Shawn Nelson: 37:14

Some of us were meant to be stay-at-home parents, some of us were not. But regardless, if you get the chance to choose, if you have the opportunity to choose, it's a personal choice and I think there isn't a right answer, I think, to your point. Your wife may be a better mom because she goes to work and has that experience and success. Then she would be if she were a stay-at-home mom, resenting, you know, her bratty children or something like that. Right, and I don't know your wife.

Shawn Nelson: 37:43

But my point is is that I think that people have to feel that out for themselves and be honest, be honest with themselves. And the rough part is is when you can't even make the choice. You are forced, as a single parent or as a dual income home, that you are forced to make decisions just to survive. And in that case I empathize and I think, like welcome to your cold, hard reality. But take it on, accept it and do your best, and that's, I think, all we're asked to do. I think we were all raised by parents who, unbeknownst to us, were facing probably a lot of the exact same decisions and challenges. We were just aloof to it. We're just dumb kids and, by the way, god bless them for keeping us in the dark and letting us live a happy, you know, childhood.

Matthew Krekeler: 38:33

Yeah, so we're coming up, unfortunately, towards the end of our time, but, yeah, just kind of thinking of the future and everything. Yeah, your daughters are your oldest, you said, is 15. So you know they're closer to being on their own out of the house in a couple more years than mine are, but yeah, they're doing amazing things. I know that you ski and you dirt bike and you're doing all these great things. Yeah, could you share just kind of what are the ways that you are encouraging your daughters? Like, what things are they passionate about? How do you encourage that? And then, like, what lesson, like do you hope that they take with them as their adults?

Shawn Nelson: 39:22

Yeah, look, I'm really proud of my daughters. They all speak Mandarin, chinese. I speak Mandarin. I served a mission for my church there, learned the language. We found schools that do half the immersion. That's pretty cool.

Shawn Nelson: 39:33

They all play instruments. They all play the piano. They all are studying the guitar as well, and you know, my oldest is kind of a virtuoso at the piano, for sure, and a songwriter. The rest of them are doing okay and that's fine. I think that music is a very powerful skill. I think that it wrinkles the brain in ways that other things don't.

Shawn Nelson: 40:02

You know, they've taken dance. They've done all kinds of different lessons, jujitsu along the way, I think, one of the things I'm passionate about. We all ski as a family, and I think that's good for a family. It's something you can do together. And water sports we're into that as well. So we're into a lot of things. You know, I'm just a person who's always been into a lot of things, and so I guess, for better or for worse, that's the reality that our kids are being raised in. At the same time, you know, we've pulled them out a lot. They're not doing everything. They've done different things along the way and we've dropped different things in the pursuit of having some free time and letting them be kids. You know they're not just going from one class to the next and the next. There's a little bit of that, but not as much as you'd think, because we've allowed them to abandon things that they're good at, all these things you know dance and singing and performing and whatever. But like you have to choose. There's only so many hours in a day and if you don't, you'll be eaten alive, especially with multiple kids as a taxi running them around and, by the way, that could take its toll and if you're not careful that could take its toll on your core relationship with your spouse. So I would advise you to be careful of that. But somewhere in there there's a place where it works for your family.

Shawn Nelson: 41:14

Lastly, I've tried to lure them all into dirt biking. Dirt biking is dumb as it sounds. Riding motorcycles is something that I've only gone into my forties, but I became fascinated with it because it's so demanding, particularly off-road, and the only reason I'm talking about it is it doesn't have to be dirt biking. But I've found it's not something I can do for them. I can kind of do it with them, but they're on their own two wheels. They're gonna tip over, they're going to fall, they're going to get hurt a little bit. They're going to have to be brave, because to really ride a dirt bike on trails you have to drop off of ledges, you have to climb up things that are very steep and threatening and sometimes not make it, and then deal with the terror of not making it and then surviving it and picking up the heavy motorcycle and getting back out of the dirt and maybe a few tears.

Shawn Nelson: 42:10

But there are lessons in all of that. There are lessons in all of that. My daughter just fell on her face the other day you know riding, you know trying to follow us on a trail, and she got back up and was you know a mess and crying and I thought, oh, this might be it and you wait to see can she get back on and when she does, because, by the way, there's no other way back to the car, like you kind of have to. And then very next day she did her first race, completed 16 miles against bigger kids, again ended in tears. She's a bit emotional, but it's one of the cool. Now you ask her about it, there's just a little bit of space, one of the things she's most proud of in life.

Shawn Nelson: 42:52

And so find ways to that can, naturally and in a fun way, push your kids way out of their comfort zone, put them in positions that bring them to the brink, hopefully without without damaging them, without crushing them, and I believe they'll be stronger for it. And in my case, you know, dirt biking has has played a role in that, as crazy as that sounds. So, but there's other ways and it's it's what I believe in and I'm very proud of these girls and I look forward to seeing you know what they do with their own lives. And they're all, as anyone who has multiple children knows, these are individuals from the time, from the moment they are born. They are born with their individual spirits and their individual energy, and it's so satisfying. What a blessing. I mean. There's nothing yeah, there's nothing better in life.

Matthew Krekeler: 43:46

Yeah, I love that. I couldn't agree more. Yeah and like. For people out there that are like yeah, where do I even start? I love, the very first thing in your book is just do something. Just do something.

Shawn Nelson: 43:57

We have ideas every day these ideas flow through your mind, like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if we went hiking Planet? Book the gig? Look at it, you know. Like, take Like these ideas that you have as a father, they, they might not even just be your ideas, they might be inspiration. Take advantage of that inspiration and do something. I agree 100%. So, whether it's for yourself or your kids. Like, get that book. You know, take that class.

Matthew Krekeler: 44:26

Get your kids on a team of some kind. Yeah and yeah, just like get out there and then the next do the next thing, be the next thing. Just continue to encourage All of these are. Thanks for quoting Sean. Yeah, these are. Sean is from the book my podcast.

Shawn Nelson: 44:41

Let me save you 25 years. We got a lot of people who are like, yeah, I'm going to be a great writer. We go deep into every one of these. Sean isms each week and you know I and none of it look all the. All the proceeds from my book are donated to the future business leaders of America nonprofit. My podcast has no advertisers, you know, I'm just putting it out there to be useful. But you know, the fact that you're even listening to stuff like this, I think, shows that you have a desire to be better at being a dad, let's say, and that's only a good thing, you know, I mean, that's, that's a great thing. Now, just now, just pair that with a little bit of action. Number one, sean, isn't just do something. And then number two, just do the next thing and you're on your way.

Matthew Krekeler: 45:30

Yeah, that's so great, sean. It's so awesome to have you on the podcast. Thanks for being a part of Girl Dad Nation. And yeah, I just did something. I listened to your podcast. There we go, then I got your book and then I you never know until you asked, so I sent you an email and asked for you to be on the podcast. I'm so thankful that you said yes, that's right.

Matthew Krekeler: 45:51

So, to wrap up this interview, I want to give you a special opportunity Pretend like I'm not here Want to give you an opportunity to leave a special message directly to your kids.

Shawn Nelson: 46:03

Oh, all right, lucky Duke, pepper and Valentine. You are the most important thing in my life, next to your mother, and even though I don't get to spend all of my time with you and sometimes when I'm with you I can be distracted or annoyed or who knows what there is nothing on earth I love more than you and I'm grateful to have been given the opportunity to be your father, and I take it very seriously, even though I come up short every day, probably every other moment of every day, but I'm trying and I thank you for your patience and love. God that is you.

Matthew Krekeler: 47:05

I'll find you, Daddy. Thank you so much for my audience. Please follow Girl Dad Nation. I'm on social media at Girl Dad Nation and if you love this episode, share it with a friend. Until next time, go be a dad.